Sunday, October 05, 2008

The Assyrians of Södertälje

I have written previously about the situation in the Swedish town of Södertälje (for previous articles, see the links at the bottom of this post) and the problems caused by its large immigrant population. What makes Södertälje unusual is that most of the immigrants causing trouble are not Muslims, but Assyrian Christians.

The example of Södertälje highlights the fact that the issue in Sweden and other parts of Europe is not just Muslim immigration, but all mass immigration, especially from the Third World. Even though the Assyrians are Christians, like their Muslim counterparts they have brought with them violence, crime, the disinclination to assimilate, and a widespread disregard for the laws and customs of their adopted country.

These are hard lessons to learn, but it’s important to see the problem clearly: mass immigration into a country tends to cause disruption of civil society and lawlessness. It also tends to erode respect for the authority of the state, on the part of immigrants and natives alike.

Daniel Eriksson, who blogs at Falkblick, kindly agreed to prepare an English-language report for Gates of Vienna on the situation in Södertälje.


Södertälje
by Daniel Eriksson


Södertälje, a town with 60,000 inhabitants, features regularly in Swedish news. Most of the time it is crime that draws the media’s attention to the town. A few weeks ago, twenty immigrant youths attacked a defenseless girl, whose life was saved only thanks to five native Swedes from neighbouring Gnesta, who stepped in and themselves were beaten up.

Similar incidents are common. A few years ago the police station was even attacked by machine guns following riots. The riots had started when police came to arrest youths who had thrown stones at two girls.

The explanation for the unusually high level of cruel and senseless violence in this little town is not a very surprising one. Södertälje is one of the towns in Sweden with the highest portion of immigrants. A very large number of them, more than one third of the entire population, are Christian Assyrians.

Recently there has been a huge influx of Iraqis, too, something that has led to massive overcrowding (in Swedish), and there are also many other immigrant groups represented in the town. However, so far, it is the Assyrians that have caused the majority of the problems in Södertälje.
- - - - - - - - -
In certain areas, such as the ghetto-like suburbs of Hovsjö and Ronna, Assyrians are the all but dominant ethnic group. In those areas, clans with their own “courts” rule (Swedish). Lennart Gabrielsson (Folkpartiet) comments on the incident prior to the machine-gun shooting: “When the police were interrogating among others the attacked girls, two boys aged 14-15 came by. Even though the police were there they kicked at the girl. They don’t have the slightest respect for the police — that is bad,” he says in an upset tone.

Mafia-like criminal networks, many of the members of which are Assyrians, threaten policemen, officials, and small businesses (Swedish). In classic mafia style, restaurants are offered “protection”. Professional criminals work at the entrance, which enables them control how much money comes in and to take what share they want. An alcohol inspector got a bomb put on the outside of his car. Threats are regularly issued against policemen — “your house will be burnt down, we know where you live”, etc.

It is generally believed that the fact that the Assyrian group is so dominant it a major reason for the problems (Swedish). In more diverse multicultural areas, people don’t stick as much to one another as the Assyrians do in Södertälje. The diversity makes it less easy for criminals to co-operate, less easy to construct a parallel justice system, and people are also more prone to integrate into Swedish society. The Assyrians in Södertälje don’t need that; they have set up their own self-contained society in Södertälje.

There are many similarities between the Assyrians and Muslims from the same region in Middle East. Just as among Muslims, “honour violence” is common; though a former Muslim scheduled to speak on the subject in Södertälje has been forced to cancel her plans due to threats (Swedish). “We will not tolerate being taught by a Muslim,” aggressive Assyrians say. Marriages with Muslims are frowned upon by the Church, and to a certain extent, marriages with Swedes too.

Among the Assyrians, religion plays an important part in political life, just like it does for Muslims. The Syrian Orthodox church is closely knit to the Assyrian identity. Also, they share the Muslims’ poor understanding of the Western idea of freedom of speech. Just as Muslims in Sweden and abroad protested violently over Lars Vilks’ Mohammed dogs, Assyrians in Norrköping, another Swedish town, clashed with the police (Swedish) nine years ago, trying to destroy the art exhibition Ecce Homo and throwing objects at the artist. Many Swedish Christians protested too, admittedly, but they did it in civilized, Western, style, writing letters to the artist and to the papers.


Previous posts about Södertälje:

2007 Sep 23  Malmö and Södertälje
    25  The “Youths” of Södertälje
2008 Sep 11  Struck Down by Twenty “Youths”

44 comments:

Conservative Swede said...

Daniel,

First of all, thanks for this article. I have pointed this out many times, but a good article like yours will convince more. But still we often get the reaction here, when I try to tell them that it's been third-world Christians doing this or that, that "no that's impossible it must have been Muslims".

Secondly, the Iraqis who have come to Södertälje are Assyrians too! See here for example (Swedish). There must be an amazingly high percentage of the original Iraqi Assyrian population in Södertälje.

randian said...

This behavior is so like what Muslims do they surely learned this behavior from them. A few centuries of oppression will do that to you.

Fjordman said...

Meanwhile, mass immigration continues at full speed. Miljöpartiet de Gröna, the Swedish Green Party, want a "world citizenship" to replace national citizenships, they want totally free migration on an international basis, global taxes and a strengthened United Nations to ensure a just world order.

They also have a strong focus on anti-discrimination and racism, and desire harsh and swift penalties against "discrimination" (yet apparently soft penalties for many other crimes). They want "religiously neutral" holidays (no Christmas or Easter) and education against racism and discrimination to be taught in schools. No "bigotry" against any group of people (except whites, and white men in particular, presumably) will be allowed, and all forms of bigotry ("hets mot folkgrupp") should be banned by law regardless of where it is voiced. Among the forms of racism they specify that should be aggressively stamped out is "Islamophobia."

However, since they are realistic people, they understand that all forms of racism on a global basis cannot be stamped out until we have completely dismantled the current "racist world order" and replace it with a new and just world order where none suffer and the poor are no longer exploited by the capitalist system.

They state explicitly that the very concepts male and female are 100% "socially constructed" and forced upon all human beings. In order to reach this new world order of social justice, it is paramount that all artificial identities are broken down. This should be facilitated by the education system and specially trained teachers catering to children from a young age.

The Green Party believe that "all human beings" should be free to choose whatever name they desire. By this they seem to mean not only names, but also "gender." They want absolutely everything to be "gender neutral," not only marriage ceremonies but identity cards.

I assume this means that I should be able to pick a female name on my identity card and that the state is oppressing me if it doesn't allow this. Since such artificial labels contribute to the exploitative world order of poverty and global warming, one must assume that people will starve in the Sudan if I cannot call myself "Mary" or "Christine" on my driver's license.

laller said...

Oh stop it, Baron and Daniel. You both know that the only problem group is the muslim group. You're just spouting racist propaganda and supporting the ethnic nationalist/white supremacist agenda. People like you are just hitching a ride on the counterjihad movement to try and legitimize your racist ideas/ideologies.

/sarcasm OFF

Personally I like this post very much because it shows WHY "ethnic nationalist" parties don't just focus on islam but try to deal with immigration in general. Ofcourse, to some people, those reasons don't matter for *BLEEP*

spackle said...

Are we sure we are not talking about a city in Columbia or some other banana republic?

Conservative Swede said...

Laller,

One side of this is that this predator nature exist in many ethic groups, not only Muslims. And the Assyrians dominate Södertälje (being a whopping third of the population), and they totally "own" the place.

Another side is how these conditions are created by Western liberalism, more than anything else. Western liberalism makes virtually every other ethnic group into thugs, by encouraging their worst sides, taking the very worst out of them. This accounts for the difference between black culture and niggah culture which I mentioned in another thread; where niggah culture is entirely a liberal product. The same applies for Mexicans in USA. And even Assyrians in Södertälje can be kept in place by a proper un-American law and order regime.

Yes, even Muslims can be kept in place with a proper such regime, which would include no Saudi funded mosques, forbidden to wear hijab publicly, etc.

However, even if we can keep them in place, do we wish to be replaced by them?

Conservative Swede said...

Spackle,

Are we sure we are not talking about a city in Columbia or some other banana republic?

No we are definitely talking about a multicultural paradise town in Sweden. And not just any sort of multicultural paradise, but exactly the one that several anti-Jihadists were eager to create last year, when they suggested that Muslim immigration should be stopped, while the immigration of Christian minorities from the Muslim world should be heavily increased, and we should take in millions and millions of them.

Apart from being an incomprehensible suggestion to the general public (which would be painted as discriminatory and "Christian theocracy" by the left and the liberals), the actual result of it would be like we see here in Södertälje.

The lesson is: NO MORE third-world immigration AT ALL, until the liberal order of the West has fallen. As I pointed out in my previous comment, Western liberalism makes every third-world immigration (and even some Eastern European) into poison. The liberal order of the West has to be completely reversed first, before we should even start discussing such immigration again.

Western Initiatives said...

This isn't surprising. As I have said on more than one occasion, the problem in Europe and North America is racial--not religious. Coupled to that, is the problem of the sheer numbers of third world settlers.

I know quite a few educated, upper class, white Muslims in the West who have assimilated quite well. In fact, they are very critical of Western governments who insist on importing millions of poor, low-IQ, radicalised immigrants from the Middle East, North Africa, and Pakistan. They immigrated to the West to escape these kinds of people!

Likewise, in the US, native whites are being conquered by millions of inassimilable mestizo settlers, imported by the national government. Though they share a common religion, the two people possess racial and cultural differences that are usually too great to prevent friction.

D said...

Comments like these were being made of Polaks and Italians in New York at the turn of the last century. Do you still see people making these comments today?
It's interesting that you have an editorial like this about the Assyrians causing problems in Södertälje and on your news page, you have a news editorial showing the mass killing of Christians in Mosul Iraq. The only Christians in Mosul Iraq are in fact Assyrians. Assyrians would not be in Sweden except for the ongoing genocide being perpetrated against them in the ME. It's also ironic that the Swedish legislature last month refused to recognize the mass killing of Armenians\Assyrians\Greeks in the early 1900s as a genocide by pandering to Turkish interests. How about we do something for these people in their native countries, help them, instead of complain about the problems they cause when they're escaping discrimination, violence and yes, even death in their native countries.

Conservative Swede said...

D,

Comments like these were being made of Polaks and Italians in New York at the turn of the last century. Do you still see people making these comments today?

Well, it's to the tune of this sound-bite that USA is today remaking its southern states into Latin America (Aztlan), with the massive influx of Mexicans (original Americans are already the minority in e.g. California).

(Policy in America is never based on thought and always on sound-bites. Quite as in the French Revolution.)

To compare Italians and Polaks to Assyrians and Mexicans is truly an expression of ignorant xenophobia, and you should be ashamed of it, D.

How about we do something for these people in their native countries

Fine. About this we agree.

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

mass immigration into a country tends to cause disruption of civil society and lawlessness

Wrong, Baron. Mass immigration has been going on in the U.S. for more than 150 years now, since the mass migration of starving Irish in the 1840's. Do you think our nation would be better off today if the "know nothings" had successfully kept the Irish starving in Ireland? Or the Italians starving in Sicily? Or the Poles turned unwillingly into Russians and Germans in Poland? Or Eastern European Jewry annihilated 50 years earlier than it actually occurred, by the Tsarists rather than the Nazis?

Or the mass influx of Asians into the U.S. today, which is actually saving our country by filling the jobs that native Americans, even when highly educated, are too indolent or uninterested in to fill?

Or the mass influx of people from all over the world into the U.S. today, not just Mexicans but from Third World nations everywhere, who are industriously trying to work their way up into the American dream by doing the dirty, low-paying jobs that no Americans are willing to do? Not just farmworkers - but the Gambian immigrants who as Certified Nursing Assistants took such good care of my Mother during her recent recovery from a broken hip in a rehabilitation center?

Just because Muslims aren't making good "immigrants," and just because Europe has a different history with immigrants - doesn't mean that you have the right to extrapolate situations such as are occurring in Sodertalje everywhere so as to propagate a racist and xenophobic ideology.

And, Fjorman, I'm talkin' to YOU TOO!

The Poster Formerly Known as Gordon said...

Er, that's "FjorDman." :)

D said...

Conservative Swede,
To compare Italians and Polaks to Assyrians and Mexicans is truly an expression of ignorant xenophobia, and you should be ashamed of it, D.

You're complaining to me about ignorant xenophobia...
The lesson is: NO MORE third-world immigration AT ALL

A very large portiong these imigrants are from Turkey. Turkey is hardly a third world country (although not at the same standards as Sweden). The Christians of Turkey were actually the educated, land\business owners in that society. These people are just trying to escape discrimination, intolerance and bodily harm in their native countries. The difference here is that these families aren't out there trying to conquer anything. They're simply trying to escape persecution in their native lands. Granted, the Assyrians are a tight knit conservative community where religion plays a big part of their culture but generalising them into a "mafia" society is bigotry in its pure sense. Italians were called the same when they imigrated to the US.

...until the liberal order of the West has fallen.

The problem I see here is the clash of a conservative society with a liberal one that all of you complain so bitterly about.
So, the question is, what do the people here specifically dislike in Liberalism. Is it secularism, moral equivalance, the movement for gay rights, the marginalising of religion (specifically Christianity), abortion etc. etc. etc. All of these hallmarks of liberalism, is contrary to a deeply Christian and conservative Assyrian society. The news stories actually outline the problems. Or is your criticism targeted only at the multicultural aspect of liberalism? So you want a liberal but non multicultural society right? Or a conservative society (same as Assyrians) but without the immigration.

The name of this blog is "Gates of Vienna" denoting the war against jihad and political Islam. When you mix anti-immigrant (any immigrant) sentiment into this blog, it gives your detractors, specifically the ones condenming you for xenophobia, nationalism and facism a lot more ammunition.

Robin Shadowes said...

The swedish Miljöpartiet is more and more resembling The Judean Peoples Front of Life of Brian-fame. Jeez!

Watchful said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
asm said...

The behaviour of these assyrians in Sweden has puzzled me for years as well. I guess part of the answer is experiencing muslim oppression over a long time.

A swedish policeman however explained their behaviour to a swedish newspaper, saying that the assyrians are celebrating a bandit living around 600 BC, called "Gÿlbej" as a folk hero. I was not able to dig up anything more on this figure, maybe the name was misspelled? Feel free to help out.

Reaction of a local assyrian organization to the policeman's claims (in swedish):
http://www.hujada.com/article.php?ar=165&page=1

Watchful said...

There has been a cultural clash between Israelis of European heritage and those who came from the Arab countries. I don't know how well both groups have "integrated" with each other at this time, but I remember that 20 years ago when I was visiting Tel Aviv, I was talking with a businessman of European heritage who expressed some of the widespread dislike for the behavior and culture of the "Arab Jews." He said, "The only difference between them and the Arabs is their religion. When one of them beats his wife, his neighbors approve." He also complained that these "Arab Jews" had no appreciation for the fruits of European civilization, such as the symphony, the arts, etc.

As I said, I don't know what the current situation in Israel is in this regard. Perhaps someone can comment.

M.J said...

As an former anarchist (back in the 70´s)and once pro immigration i can now see where it has taken my country. The primary problem as i se it is the totally unduly proportions of migration and secondly the selfsegregating and nonassimilating muslims.

The problems with the christian assyrians it´s a well known fact, even leftiest friends of mine are quite aware that. Their behaviour and culture traits wich includes honourkillings, forced marriages and a raw sexism are undisputable and a huge problem. Just like the muslims they show contempt for the law and the "weakling" aboriginals of sweden. There are good and law abiding assyrians to no doubt about it, but many though who isn´t.

And honest i can´t see the real problem with keeping the scandinavian countries primarily swedish, finnish or whatsoever, it gives cohesion and contributes to a certain social stability. If Africa is to the blacks, Palestine is to the palestines (all according to the leftiest) what´s the big deal with Sweden for the Swedes or Finland to the Finns i don´t get it. In a nation state there is always room also for the minorities on an equal basis.

M.J on Islamofoben

Russkiy said...

One of my best mates is Qeldany (Catholic Iraqi) I will have a chat to him about that.

The thing about European Vs Non-European immigrant in my opinion is the family structure.

For example although Russians are notorious for the "Mafia" I don’t think it’s the same kind of thing as Muslim or other Third worldish type of behaviour. Russian family structure is in reality the four people family unit plus the extended family (but not very influential), just like Western (in a sense).

All other type of people such as Georgians, Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, Italians and Muslims have very strong family ties, many cousins, uncles, and further extension. And they all aware of the importance of the family.

The family members will help you, and they will punish you for not conforming to the family policy.

My mate told me that his family would disown him if he ever contemplated marrying a Muslim, but its ok for him to marry a European or western girl. And he is very protective of his sister LOL.

Russkiy said...

Another thing I want to say for those people who during the war between Russia and Georgia were trying to make an argument that Georgians are somehow more western the Russians, HA HA HA...

They much more resembale middle eastern behavior just like the Assirians then western. People of Caucasian background regardless of their Religion are notorious for that type of behavior in Russia. Except for Armenians (may be).

Armenian behaviour from my experience more resemble Jewish then Mid-eastern. They are good scientists, doctors and comedians.

D said...

Their behaviour and culture traits wich includes honourkillings, forced marriages and a raw sexism are undisputable and a huge problem

The fact is that this is completely untrue. Honor killings have never been part of Assyrian culture. There is no documentation or history of this happening. As a deeply Christian culture, their religion would preclude them doing something like this.
Forced marriages also don't occur. What does happen is that parents make a recommendation to their children and it's up to them after going out whether they would like to be married or not. If this is the West's idea of forced marriage than I don't know what to tell you.

The problems with the christian assyrians it´s a well known fact, even leftiest friends of mine are quite aware that

Your leftist friends are aware of it because as a religious and conservative culture Assyrian\Syriacs don't mesh very well with Scandinavian liberalism. Assyrians value things like the family, their church and respect for their elders etc.

I agree with you though about countries keeping their national identities. The problem is this; what do we, in the West do, when we see the systematic extermination of these people in their native countries? Do we just sit down and watch this culture (Which has a history spanning a few millenia) just die out? Why don't we go after the root cause of the problem here which is jihad and fanatic islam which is causing one of the largest mass displacement of peoples in history? Why don't we acknowledge these people's grievance in our governments? Instead of cynical denying the genocide (Assyrian Genocide of 1915 in Turkey in which 1/2 to 2/3 of Assyrians in the world were killed) in the Swedish legislature which is the root cause of these people slowly moving into the West and Sweden in the first place???

Russkiy said...

The Christians of Iraq are normally more educated then their muslim counterparts, however you must remember that they have been an opressed minority in the middle east for a thousand years, just like jews they have developed very close-nit relationship within the family and with the other people with-in the assyrian community.

Since they were the minority they could be even more tribal then the muslims.

However normally they dont see the westerners as infidels, maybe as weaklings but not infedels.

DP111 said...

Is Islam the cause of Arab violence, mysoginy and other cultural traits, or is it that the Arab mindset itself gave rise to a "religion" in keeping with their mindset? I have felt that the latter is the more likely.

Assyrian Arab Christians behaving like Arab Muslims gives support to the thesis.

The rest of the Muslim world simply follows the Arab Muslim world in trying to be the "bestest" of Muslim, ie the Arab Muslim. Naipaul was astonished that Pakistanis and Malay Muslims, preferred to be identified as Arab Muslims rather then Indian.

D said...

Sodertajle also has a large community of Iraqi Muslims that have been pulled by Assyrians emigrating to Sweden. They see that their neighbors (Christians) have moved to Sweden from Iraq and are attracted by the easier life it offers.

Again, the emigration of Assyrians to Sweden is not the typical immigrant scenario where the poorest population moves out of a country looking for better oppurtunities elsewhere. These people were the cream of the crop of the middle east. They were the educated, the craftsmen, the business and land owners of the middle east. In fact in Turkey an economic crisis occured in the first half of the 20th century because many Christians imigrated out of the country because of persecution. They took with them their knowledge, manufacturing skills and their money. A brain drain of huge proportions occured and the Turkish economy suffered greatly as a result.

gun-totin-wacko said...

Well now, I'm confused! Just the other day, I had a brief talk with a coworker who is a Socialist. He assured me that Sweden is a wonderful place, with high life expectancy and low crime. When I suggested he visit GoV, he told me he had seen it, and doesn't agree with it.

When i pointed out that I had read numerous articles written and quoted here about Swedish problems (women being beaten for "inappropriate" dress, rape, the Ombudsman for racial purity or whatever it's called, etc) he insisted that it isn't true. After all, he once dated a Swedish girl!

So now what? Who do I believe, the numerous tales of life in Sweden, or the opinions of one American Socialist Man?

Russkiy said...

I don't think what you encounter in Assirians is an "Arab" trate exactly.

Lets compare Northern European States and Southern European States.

From what I have heard in Corsica, Italy, Greece, vendetas are still common. The family structure is still tribal, the men are more "macho", sexism is more prevalent, women try to impress men with their looks more, etc...

Most societies that are not Northern seem exhibit this qualities.

Islam makes this common trates of traditional society very dominant, there is no liberal streak for the cultural advancement.

Other cultures (non-muslim including Assirians) when exposed to new ideas tend not to reject them as their believe systems are more flexible.

Christians in the middle east were the first to bring and adopt new western ideas, such as relative freedom for women. They still have a long way to go to appear as european to liberal european types.

The issue in my view is that on one hand people advocate to change western mentality, become more conservative, start to value family more, have greater loyalty to the members of your family and race, yeat at the same time criticise assirian of having all those trates.

D said...

The issue in my view is that on one hand people advocate to change western mentality, become more conservative, start to value family more, have greater loyalty to the members of your family and race, yeat at the same time criticise assirian of having all those trates

That's exactly what I'm saying. I'm a frequent reader of this blog. Liberalism is something that I, and I would say most visitors here disagree with vehemently. Why do we side then with liberals when we see a conservative society that doesn't agree with Far-Left liberalism. Assyrians value the family, they value their church, sexual abstinence and purity are promoted. They generally assimilate in the West except for issues that run contrary to these conservative beliefs. At the same time they also want to preserve their culture and language. Are there a few of them that cause trouble? Probably. Most immigrant families take some years before they attain financial success. To generalize them as a "mafia" society because they're conservative and are proud of their culture is a bit hypocritical. We're complaining daily as to why in the world Europeans hate their own culture so much as to try to destroy it. I think Europeans can learn from these people instead of criticizing them for their backwardness.

Graham Dawson (Archonix) said...

asm: the character in question was probably called something like gulbey or kulbey. The ending, the "bey", means something like leader or commander, or just person.

@various: the problem is the kind of focus these people have. Arabic culture from the outside seems conservative - family oriented, and so on - but it's adversarial, compared to western conservative culture which is atomised but cooperative, based on the concept of alliance.

Arabic culture is described as "me against my brother, me and my brother against our father, our family against our uncle's family, family against the tribe, tribe against tribe". It stems from the very basic insecurity that comes from nomadic life.

Western family orientation is based on the farmstead, the ownership of land, which provides a secure base to reach out to other families in alliance when necessary and otherwise just leave them to their own devices. It's brother assisting brother, sons assisting father, family assisting family... which sounds superficially similar if you don't think about it too carefully, but is in fact the complete opposite.

This alliance creed is so very strong that it sticks at the very top of government. We form alliances, where the arabs conquered, absorbed and used vassals.

No description is perfect of course but this is the basic ethos of arabic and consequently muslim culture, and any culture that has been oppressed by that will necessarily absorb a great deal of the outlook in order to survive.

Rier said...

Inasmuch as this article relates to the question of assimilation of immigrants, it makes an excellent point. If you're going to bring in large numbers of immigrants from a foreign culture in any part of the world whatsoever and expect them to adjust well to life in a new country they have to know that they have a great deal at stake if they don't succeed. In my own part of the world (Canada) the government, beginning in 1891, started bringing in massive waves of desparately poor, half starved settlers from what is now Ukraine (including my own ancestors) and other areas of Central and Eastern Europe, and pretty much abandoned them in the middle of what was virtually a forested wilderness that had barely been surveyed by cartographers, much less endowed with any infrastructure or developed communities to provide a social or economic safety net, and they had to immediately get down to work clearing the land and preparing it for farming as, quite literally, a condition of survival.

Ironically, these immigrants succeeded and laid the foundations of a modern, wealthy industrial and post-industrial society, but also managed not only to become prosperous but to provide some very interesting and worthwhile contributions to the arts and the general culture of this area in the way of foods and cuisine, visual and performing arts - including some of the liveliest traditions of folk dance to be found anywhere - because (unlike a later wave of immigrants from the same place) they were too busy trying to stay alive to be bothered with reproducing - as a kind of ideological project - the culture that had known in the old world. This was part of the seemless and organic development of the culture of the Canadian prairies because these immigrants learned the language and came into fruitful and productive contact with the host culture and integrated themselves into it.

On the other had, many of the Ukrainians that came here after the Second World War as refugees from Soviet Communism had the naive idea that they could - and should - try to build a small copy in the new world of their homeland as its culture had existed prior to the Stalinist period. Plus they had too little else to do. They managed to pretty much take over all of the Churches, cultural centres and other institutions that the earlier wave of immigrant Ukrainians had built and managed to succeed in turning them into museum pieces that were quite literally out of touch with the evolving culture of their ancestral homeland but all but completely irrelevant to the rest of Canadian society. Not only that but, like any other culture, including that of these Assyrian Christians, theirs had its dark side which inevitably scarred the project as well, namely a great deal of anti-Semitism and Xenophobic insularity.

The latter quality, in particular, has resulted in a situation in which many of these immigrants have been able to live out their entire lives within an isolated microcosm of the old world entirely bereft of contact with the mainstream culture. When I did a pastoral year as a theology graduate in a local Ukrainian parish just within the last few years, I was shocked to find people who had lived in this country since the end of World War II and never learned so much as a word of English! Much of the blame for this cultural stagnation has to be laid at the feet of the ideology and policy of multiculturalism which encourages the formation of ghetto communities, and when these constitute outposts of cultures that do not properly belong in that part of the world, particularly cultures in conflict, the results for social cohesion can be exposive. During the violent of breakup of the former Yugoslavia in the 1990's the "Heritage Days" celebration in Edmonton, held to honour the various cultural communities that make up our "mosaic", were marred by a violent brawl when some of the supporters of either the Serbian or the Croatian pavillion (I can't remember which) went over to the one set up by "the other side" and picked a fight with the people there over the events in the Yugoslav conflict. Well, what else can be expected when immigrants are allowed to feel so little accountability to their new homeland and their loyalties are predominantly or exclusively oriented toward their old one?

I do not say that the treatment of immigrants should be as draconian as it was in the case of my ancestors - who were simply abandoned by the immigration agents that brought them to their new homestead and said "So long!", left to sink or swim on their own, with no one afterwards bothering to so much as check on them once in a while to see if they were alive or dead, and who, to add insult to injury, were sometimes branded as “enemy aliens” because they came over with Austrian citizenship (their country’s territory having been partitioned among several other European powers during the two preceding centuries) and consigned to internment camps. But it should be a condition of being allowed to live in any host country that one will learn the language and abide by the laws and social customs in place there. The Swedish government - and I’m disappointed that the new Conservative government of that country is too busy getting ready to spy on its entire populace to do this sort of thing with its immigrants (including the more than troublesome Muslims) - has to let these Assyrians know that if they don’t want to respect Swedish law and custom, they can easily be sent back to Iraq to face the wrath of Al Qaeda. Perhaps at least there they could be engaged in a project that might be of constructive value for themselves, their culture and the rest of the world - namely the struggle not only to survive but hopefully to help reverse the tide of history by rolling back the benighted Arab rule of the Middle East so that civilization can return to the region.

D said...

Rier,
You're basically saying immigrants should completely assimilate into the culture that they moved to. What about a culture such as the Jewish culture. They've assimilated to the native societies that they've moved to. Does that mean that in their society in the diaspora Hebrew should not be taught anymore? Does it mean that the Jewish religion should be forgotten once they leave Israel? Does that mean, Jewish history and culture shouldn't be taught by Jews anymore?

As long as people have assimilated to their new native land, I don't think it should mean that they have to automatically forget their heritage. I know some Swedish Assyrians and I've been to Sweden. These Assyrians have basically assimilated to Swedish culture. Yet, they retain their religion (most Swedes actually don't care for religious people), they would like to retain their language at home and are generally conservative in their beliefs. Does it mean, that upon landing in Stockhom one has to automatically become a Liberal and Atheist to conform in Sweden? I think your criticisms are misguided at this point. By and large Assyrians obey the law. They're hard working people. A lot of them are sucessful business owners now in Sweden.

Conservative Swede said...

D,

These people [the Assyrians immigrants to Sweden] were the cream of the crop of the middle east.

Thank you for making the argument for us so well. We get the "cream of the crop" here, and the result is Södertälje, as described in the article above. A better argument for no more immigration of this kind, in this way, couldn't have been made.

Regarding liberalism: You miss the essence both of liberalism and conservatism. The essence of liberalism is inversion of values and civilizational suicide (through internationalism). That's why we need to get rid of it. It's true that most so-called "conservatives" mainly worry about abortion (and are otherwise internationalist just as the liberals), but the essence of conservatism is adherence to real common-sensical (non-inverted) values, and responsibility for future generations. Since your mind is wired the wrong way around (by inverted values) you think that Middle Eastern clan and thug mentality represents conservatism. I don't blame it on you, however, I blame it on our society (which propagates these twisted ideas). According to this view Ahmadinejad is conservative (sheesh!).

Regarding xenophobia: Xenophobia is prejudiced misconceptions detached from reality. Comparing Italians or Polaks to Assyrians is indeed such a prejudiced misconception. Not as grave as comparing black people to monkeys, but something of the kind. There's nothing xenophobic, however, with stopping the immigration lunacy we are struck by today; only responsible and realistic.

Adding to the very good comment by Rier: Immigration can go wrong even with the right people. However, there are people who are always wrong, and should never be let in in significant numbers (such as Arabs of any kind). People do not have a problem with this sort of reality check on other issues. E.g. given climate X certain plants will grow, and other won't. Plants A, B and C grows naturally in climate X. Plants D, E and F grow well if properly taken care of. While plants G, H and I don't grow in this climate no matter what you do.

D, E and F above represents Ukrainians in the West (however "taking care of" means pretty much the opposite of what the inverted minds of the Westerns of today think; as pointed out by Rier). G, H and I represents Assyrians and all sorts of third-worlders. Adding them to "climate X" in significant numbers can only go wrong.

Come to think of it, my analogy would fit even better if G, H and I spread like weeds in climate X; compare with the rabbits in Australia.

Bogalusans said...

To TPFKAG:
"...who are industriously trying to work their way up into the American dream by doing the dirty, low-paying jobs that no Americans are willing to do?"

Time to put this silly meme to rest.

Americans are willing to do any job, as long as it pays a wage they can live on.

I can't compete wage-wise with people who come to the U.S. from south of the border, supporting families that live down there for one-fifth or less of the expense. MY family lives here, see.

Oh, and by the way, I'm a janitor.

Rier said...

D:

You're reading far more into my post than I intended, and I honestly can't see anything in my post that justifies this. I'm talking about extremes such as the criminal behaviour described in the Baron's original post, that severely disrupt law and order of the entire larger society or challenge its most essential values. I didn't get into such specifics as you mention in regard to Jewish communities. But since you ask, no, as a matter of fact, I don't think that anyone has to give up all of the features of their ancestral cultures, nor - even less - essential religious and spiritual practices provided that none of these are disruptive to the basic social order or the essential values that it rests upon. To the contrary, I see great value in the retention of ancestral languages and other customs provided that this does not negate the acquisition of the language in which the wider society as a whole functions (in fact I have retained at least some familiarity with my own, and have pursued varying degrees of study of others as well) and even more so - as regards religious practice - in regard to languages that serve genuine hieratic or liturgical purposes, such as Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Old Church Slavonic, Aramaic, etc. I personally retain, as my religious affiliation, the "Byzantine" (broadly Orthodox/Greek Catholic) form of Christianity - a distinctly minority tradition when measured against the religious spectrum of this country.

I'm not saying we should all just be clones of one another in a completely unitary culture. I'm talking about the type of assimilation of values and culture that makes possible the interaction of members of minority groups with the wider culture in the essential features that the social life of the host country is derived from. This requires at the very least the acquisition of the language in which the mainstream culture functions (which doesn't in any sense rule out, as I've said, the retention of other languages if this is desirable for the individual or for families), respect for the basic governing system of the country and the principles upon which it is based, and adherence to the laws and customs that defines proper social relations in matters that affect the whole of the wider society (for example, in modern Western societies, the emphasis on social equality and equality of opportunity among individuals and between men and women)and makes possible the development and defense of a reasoned, just and peaceful social order possible. One simply can not achieve this, in a modern secular, constitutional democracy by tolerating the retention by a specific immigrant community of, for example, practices like honor killings. This does not mean, by any stretch of the imagination, however, that every vestige of the minority culture should simply be extinguished. I'm not at all sure how you came to such a conclusion about my posting.

In regards to the Assyrians, or any other immigrant group, they should realize that if they want to enjoy the benefits of Swedish citizenship, or any other in the Western world, they ought to be willing to play by the rules that make Swedish society (or any other) what it is in its essence - or if they have a better way of doing things, contribute to the organic development of Swedish society by peaceful interaction with it - and not try to play by their own rules as if they are, by definition, the masters who are entitled to call the shots.

D said...

Rier,
I agree with the general sentiment of what you're saying. We do need to be careful to not stereotype these people though. Assyrians\Syriacs are East Orthodox Christians and their daily language is neo-Aramaic. From my interaction with them, they take huge pride in continuing a language that has a recorded history of 3000 years and also that it was the language of Jesus of Nazareth. I think if the same amount of Greeks had moved into Sodertajle, we would be talking about the Greeks causing problems. The problem imo is the system. The Swedish government has to do more for these immigrants whether it be to give them better training to find those jobs that they need to have financial freedom or even to educate themselves about the sensitivities of Orthodox Christian culture. In a large part I think it's the modernity and liberal mentality of Scandinavia that's really creating an insular culture with groups like these. The liberal mindset is completely foreign to these people. They are from the middle east after all but I would argue that many Orthodox Christian groups (Greeks, Copts, Yugoslovians etc.) would also feel alien in a society such as Sweden.

There are bad apples in every society. The ordeal of immigrating to a new country and having to start from scratch magnifies the struggles that people have to go through. The news stories outlined in this article seems to suggest that these people are living above the law because they manifest their anger at Sweden's liberal culture. Case in point; the story about the Kurd who was threatened before she was going to lecture Assyrians about honor killings which doesn't even exist in their society. At the same time Kurds are notorious in the middle east for their honor killings and are commiting violence on a daily basis against Assyrians. Also, the writeup about Assyrians throwing rotten tomatos at an artist who was having an exposition of Jesus Christ and homo-sexuals. To a liberal society that might be ok, but for a conservative one it's not acceptable.

I, myself have come to the conclusion that freedom of speech doesn't mean we should knowingly desecrate people's religion (no matter how much we think they're wrong)whether it's Islam or Christianity or whatever. Did you know that every time the Motoons were shown in the West that a few Christians lose their lives in the middle east? Moslems blame the Christians living within their midst as part of the perputrators of the desecration. 47 Churches have already been bombed in Iraq and countless Christian clergy and lay people have been executed. Part of the reason is the Mohamed cartoons. These Iraqi Christians are the Assyrians that we're refering to. So, while we promote the Mo toons in the West as freedom of speech, Churches are being bombed and Assyrians are being executed as a result. Due to this violence these same Assyrians are forced to immigrate to nations like Sweden to escape harm and we in the West complain about their backward society when they emigrate into our countries. The percentage of Christians in Iraq for example is only a couple percent but Iraqi refugees are 40% Christian! That should tell you something about how dire the situation has become for these Christians. The face violence on a daily basis, they're persecuted, discriminated against and blamed for what people in the West do.

D said...

Comparing Italians or Polaks to Assyrians is indeed such a prejudiced misconception. Not as grave as comparing black people to monkeys, but something of the kind.
Your comments are ridiculous. Where did I racially compare Polaks, Italians and Assyrians to warant being called an ignorant xenophobe by a twisted, prejudiced person such as yourself? I don't think you understand what I'm saying. The immigrant experience that Polish, Italians and Jewish immigrants experienced in America is basically the same experience that Swedish Assyrians are going through. The native people were complaining about their thuggish culture or their mafia societies. Mafia society was even used in one of the news stories linked here. The Assyrians aren't really coming for job oppurtunities, they're fleeing persecution. The Christian foundation these people have, already gives them motivation to assimilate to Western Judeo-Christian ideals.

Again, it was my belief that this blog is called "Gates of Vienna" not "Gates of Ellis Island". Attacking all immigrants damages the credibility of this blog.

Conservative Swede said...

D,

The immigrant experience that Polish, Italians and Jewish immigrants experienced in America is basically the same experience that Swedish Assyrians are going through.

No.

Russkiy said...

Conservative Swede,

Please elaborate, how is the experience with these Assirians different from what happend with italian imigrants to america and the development of Mafia.

From what I gathered by watching God Father, their society in the begining of the 20th century was not that different from that, where Assyrians are coming from.

I agree with you that importation of any large number of imigrants from less developed cultures are going to cause problems, but I believe that this will be the case with any groups (may be to a lesser extent).

As I mentioned before, I have a very good Iraqi Christian friend, so I am not impartial here. I will elaborate on some views my friend have.

Regarding Islam and other Arabs, my friend has many arab friends, however he never discusses politics with them. He knows alot about Islam, and in my opinion a great asset to people trying to learn about arab and muslim mentality.

He knows what islam is, and he is definately on the side of antijihadist evrey where.

However these are his views about western society:

1. There are many things that a person can get away with, so its hard to avoid the temptation. (actually similar sentiment all imigrants feel when moving to a civilized society)

2. He hates the way many imigrants behave (here in New Zealand its Polinesians) and his view a stronger hand is needed to deal with them, because he understands that a stik is more important then a carot.

3. He also does not like that people avoid confrontation at any cost in western society, he thinks its boring. He would appreciate a bit more engagement upfront and less what he calls "behind the back ploting", as he thinks that people dont want to front up to you and tell you what they feel.

In conclusion: he comes from a rough society, where his family had multiple automatic weapons at home, he is reasonably well adopted to life here, he is proffesional. His political views are conservative, and he amongst few people who I can share my concerns with about Islamisation of western countries. He also perfectly well understand issues that large uncontroled imigration causes, and were he in power, would have implemented very strict controls, especially on muslim emigrants.

Conservative Swede said...

Russkiy,

Please elaborate, how is the experience with these Assirians different from what happend with italian imigrants to america and the development of Mafia.

Read the article above, and the three links under it about Södertälje.

I agree with you that importation of any large number of imigrants from less developed cultures are going to cause problems

Well, that's it, isn't it?

2. He hates the way many imigrants behave

So your friend would agree with me then. Ask your friend what he thinks of taking a New Zeeland city and fill it with 1/3 Assyrians. Do it! Give him the links to the articles above.

He also perfectly well understand issues that large uncontroled imigration causes, and were he in power, would have implemented very strict controls, especially on muslim emigrants.

As I said, your friend and I seem to agree quit a lot.

Rier said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rier said...

D:

Your recent reply poses some interesting challenges to me. I think we may share some common values and perhaps reach a better agreement about all of this, and you raise topics that I find intriguing, such as your reference to the Assyrian Church of the East, which touches on my background in theology studies, so I hope you won't mind if I give you a bit of an overview of my ideas and their development before I get into the specifics of my response to your last posting because I think this will help to clarify the different values that I believe have to be balanced against one another in matters like this. I find your arguments about the cultural alienation of the Assyrians in modern liberal Sweden appealing at a certain level. In my earlier days as a convinced Social Democrat I would have accepted that interpretation of the Assyrian community's behavior (and the Muslims, as a matter of fact) more or less as axiomatic. More recently though I have come to find the center-Right criticism of the Social Democratic project and its underlying ideology more and more convincing, and I have started to make use of this skepticism as an important tool for evaluating its assumptions. Hence the appeal of this site for me.

The impetus for all this has come partly from my discovery, through the blogosphere, of the scandalous collaboration between Islamist ideology and so many Leftist ideologues (not something confined to the Left but certainly much more prominent there) - Islamism being something I've always intuitively deplored - but as a Greek Catholic, my faith perspective has also recently aided this, through a close study of the Social encyclicals of the modern Popes, real familiarity with which I too long neglected. A more thorough inquiry into these documents, alongside a more careful and critical study of the Socialist theories that Social Democrats derive much of their view of things from has considerably changed my perspective. I don't dismiss that perspective entirely. In fact I'm hoping to be able to develop some ideas that might help provide the foundations for a reworking of "Social Democratism", as I'll call it here, (to distinguish the underlying theory from the specific policies a Social Democratic government might develop and implement) into something other than just a branch of Socialism, and hopefully something rooted in the solid traditions of our culture and more capable of reconciling the legitimate concerns and aspirations of people on both the Right and on the Left. I can readily acknowledge that there is a sense of cultural alienation that a socially conservative group like the Assyrians suffer from in liberal cultures like that of Sweden. I have some very similar conservative roots and sometimes feel myself to be in a similar position. But I hope you will take notice of the fact that in emphasizing the role of “the system” in Sweden - for its provocations of the culturally alienated Assyrians - as you do, you are relying on the same argument that Leftists so often use to apologize for the violent and anti-social behavior of so many Muslims.

If we’re going to effectively deal with the security problems that large scale immigration poses in Western countries there has to be a consensus in the West among players on all parts of the political spectrum that no economy, Social Democratic, Neocon, Marxist or social liberal (and I mention this because George Bush and his Right-wing neo-conservative followers - for different reasons I would argue - are just as guilty of this bit of naivete as European leftists), can possibly solve the problems of the downtrodden and starving masses of the world by simply absorbing massive numbers of them into its own population, and tolerating the transfer of much of its wealth to the sending country of these immigrants. The expense of absorbing the newcomers, assimilating them into its population (assuming that they’re willing to assimilate) can reach a point of simply bankrupting the economy of the host country, as threatens to happen in many Western European countries today, Sweden among them, particularly if the economy of the receiving country is, as is true of places like Pakistan, Palestine, Afghanistan and so many other Islamic countries, a black hole in which economic improvement is constantly eroded by war, social repression and culturally reinforced obscurantism and fatalistic resignation such that the transferred wealth is simply lost and brings no improvement to the people living there nor any hope of a return, through increased trade or investment opportunities, to the wealthier country that provided it. I hope that this does not sound selfish. I am simply trying to be realistic in this. It is simply a given, that I think even erstwhile Social Democrats such as myself, have to accept and live with, that the wealth of the world is limited and it has to be managed prudently. From what I can see, massive immigration without adequate controls, even from populations that are culturally benign in relation to the receiving country, undermines that kind of prudent management. Immigrants who nurse grievances against their host country do not contribute to this constructive work - the opposite in fact - by immersing themselves in criminal or subversive movements as it would seem many of these Assyrians are doing (or in other circumstances that we might imagine, as you point out, the Greeks, the Serbians, the Ukrainians, the Thais, the Vietnamese or any other). I think that at this point you’re likely to object that I am conflating entirely differing cultures in applying this thinking to Sweden’s Assyrians, so in anticipation of this, I’ll state that such monetary remittances are a part of every immigrant movement from the developing world - it was in the times of my own ancestors here - and besides that, it seems unlikely to me that a group like the Assyrians can be thought to have remained entirely unaffected by the cultural fatalism of the Muslim world after having lived alongside Muslims for centuries. I have noticed that the phrase “Inshallah” is not at all uncommon among Arab speaking Christians. So I now come to the conclusions that:

a. those who are in a position to solve their problems through immigration must be determined to contribute to the well-being of the host country and that means remaining open to its values so that they can effectively contribute to the stability and sustainable building of the economy of their new country rather than being a drain on it, and:

b. we must be prepared to impose this not only on Muslims but on all immigrants.

I realize that the assimilation of Western liberal values may represent an unpleasant struggle for the Assyrians who, as you point out, find the almost cavalierly iconoclastic treatment of Christian beliefs by large. and culturally influential segments of Western society, offensive. I happen to agree with them on this, but I am convinced nonetheless that they have to stretch themselves to make this accomodation. And this is important for at least two reasons. First of all, while it definitely comes across as scurrilous to speculate about the sexual physiognomy of Christ, whether in his specific person, or in his mystical body, as Wallin’s “Ecce Homo” exhibit does - and this, consequently, is something that, if it’s going to be done, must be done with a certain care and discretion (not something that I’m willing to credit Wallin with having done) but this sits in a particular position on a spectrum of scandal versus respectability at which I think it falls somewhat short of the criteria that I think could argue for the sort of outright censorship or banning that the violent demonstrations of the Assyrians would seem to demand for it. Wallin’s exhibit is tasteless, but it does at least attempt, however inappropriately, to make a comment on a real social issue - the place in the Church of those who struggle, perhaps through no fault of their own, with the inclination toward aberrant forms of sexuality. It seems to cross the line somewhat between dealing with these types of temptations in the mind and will into the actual physical expression of these urges which the Church condemns (bear in mind that Catholic theology, under recent Popes has made it quite clear in recent years that what is condemned as morally blameworthy is not the “orientation” toward homosexuality - in traditional Christian thought the “temptation” in the mind - but the act itself when it is allowed to occur), but it does not go to the extreme that Andres Serrano’s notorious “Pi** Christ” does. This latter bit of vileness, unlike “Ecce Homo”, at least at a visual level (and therefore it is also just plain awfully bad art, quite apart from embodying a wretched idea) does not even make any discernible statement or propose an argument about a social or religious subject that can be considered, evaluated, debated, refuted, etc. If the Assyrians would like to see art that casts a negative light on established religious conventions censored, they would be wise to confine these demands to this kind of ugly, meaningless insult, and recognize a legitimate need to keep such laws away from somewhat more subtle works like Wallins‘, which attempt, even if somewhat controversially, to make a statement that a rational person, arguably, could find plausible and sympathize with. While it is unpleasant to see religious things held up to any sort of ridicule, and I share the indignation of the Assyrians about this, the allowance for this, ultimately, is a condition of our society that has allowed progress and development in Western culture.

This brings me to the second reason why it must be the Assyrians who accommodate themselves to Swedish society, not the other way around. Historically, it has been the willingness of the cultural and political elites to question religious convention that has contributed to the relegation of the Church to the margins of political power, a development which has allowed for the advancement of the natural, applied and social sciences that most of the progress and improvement in Western society in the last two centuries. Moreover, it has had similar beneficial effects in safeguarding the spiritual mission of the Church. I realize that there are problems associated with this and I am in considerable sympathy with figures like Pope Benedict who want to move that pendulum back the other way somewhat, but on the whole I see this secularism as essentially a good thing, even if it does need to be rebalanced somewhat these days. In defence of that position, I also point out that it is the Muslims, predominantly, in the advancement of their own sinister agenda, who are at the forefront of efforts to impose censorship on freedom of thought and speech, with proposals to ban “criticisms of religion” and I have found it alarming that the Vatican is showing signs of a willingness to be co-opted into this agenda.

I certainly do sympathize with the Assyrians’ resentment of the Swedish governments policy of subjecting them to lecturing from a silly Muslim woman about the topic of honor violence, but I would answer that they have every right to resist this by ridiculing her, shouting her down, denouncing her hypocracy to her face and publicly, and making their case against the government and its stupidity through lobbying elected officials, using the media, educating the public about their position, holding peaceful demonstrations, and all other democratic means. But this business of using violence, even if so far it has only consisted of throwing rotten vegetables, is just as wrong if it involves Christians as when the perpetrators are Muslims, and I point out that such tactics among Christians have occasionally escalated to harder violence like bombings. All of this has to be stopped.

Chris Bering said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Chris Bering said...

D said:
"The immigrant experience that Polish, Italians and Jewish immigrants experienced in America is basically the same experience that Swedish Assyrians are going through."

Russkiy said:
"Please elaborate, how is the experience with these Assirians different from what happend with italian imigrants to america and the development of Mafia."

D, Russkiy, exGordon and anyone else who thinks the immigrant history of the US is comparable to current immigration (non-muslims only) to Europe, Sweden or Södertälje - you're implicitly saying that all this new immigration will eventually prove just as beneficial and successful as the old immigration to the US. That is, current problems will disappear, in a process similar to the one that, more than a century ago, transformed Polish and Italian communities in the US, into benign, contributing parts of society.

Your argument is based on two fundamental assumptions:
1: Todays Assyrians from Turkey and the ME, are identical, in mentality and culture, to the Polish and the Italians of 150 years ago.
2: Immigrant conditions in todays Södertälje, are basically identical to the conditions existing in immigrant communities in the US, 150 years ago.

I agree, if the above holds true, logically you're right. You've won the argument.

But, if one or both of your assumptions can be shown wrong, you lose - your entire argument is rendered null and void.

I see a lot of posters trying to argue assumption number 1.

I'll go for assumption 2 instead.
I believe, for that to hold, a few minor changes would have to be made to Södertälje society:

1: ALL immigrant welfare benefits and subsidies shall be removed.
2: Immigrants not able to pay their rent because of this shall be evicted.
3: Immigrants shall pay for their use of schools and hospitals.
4: The Södertälje police force shall be many times larger, and be para military in nature.
5: Most crimes shall be punished by either forced labor, or hanging.

Making these small changes to society would isolate assumption 1, thus allowing our decendants a hundred years from now, to conclude whether ME christians are fundamentally like european christians.

Either that, or more likely, immigration from the 3rd world would stop.

Anosh Orahim said...

Okay. Let me get this straight. You're saying that Assyrians are the problem, and not Assyrian gangs? I'm Assyrian, and I live in the United States, not Sweden, but have never heard bad news about Assyrians in Sweden. In fact, Assyrians are considered the most industrious minority group in the country! Sure, there are those idiots who frown upon foreign cultures and some who take it a step further and involve in violent acts, but you can't seriously say most Assyrians are like that. I don't know you so I don't really care what you want in your country, because, after all, it IS YOUR country. If you want to keep Assyrians out, why don't you write to your local congressman or governor? But I encourage you to read about the history of Assyrians and what happened to them in World War 1. Since you took a cowrdice jab at Assyrians, let me repay you with the same token. I have family in Sweden, PARTICULARLY in Sodertalje, who have been attacked because they didn't want to mix with Swedes. And this was not just a bunch of thugs; these were your average Swedish (I hope I am incorrect though). Should I write an article saying Swedish people are bigots and trouble makers because they did that? No. Because I can't group all Swedes into that category. I'm a conservative myself and I understand you want to get rid of problems in your country, but if you want to get rid of ALL Assyrians, take a crack at it. I'm sure the Assyrians couldn't care less if they even live close to your country. I guarantee you that.

Kirk Parker said...

D,

"I think if the same amount of Greeks had moved into Sodertajle, we would be talking about the Greeks causing problems. The problem imo is the system. The Swedish government has to do more for these immigrants whether it be to give them better training to find those jobs that they need to have financial freedom or even to educate themselves about the sensitivities of Orthodox Christian culture. "

OR, how about letting in smaller numbers to start with, so that those who do come have a better chance at assimilation?